Video Length: 28 minutes & 26 seconds
Transcription below, edited slightly for clarity
Marin Laukka
I'm very excited to have you here today! Dr. Patricia Thompson is here with myself Marin Laukka of Yes& & today, if you are a listener, we are going to be talking about how to define success, & how that definition impacts your reality.
We're talking about what results you can expect from a positive approach to work, & then what it means to be an authentic leader, whether that's in an organization or a leader for yourself.
So, today we're bringing on Dr. Patricia Thompson, who is from Silver Lining Psychology, working as a corporate psychologist & management consulting. Dr. Patricia, would you introduce yourself for anyone who may not know who you are or what you do?
Dr. Thompson
Yeah, so, corporate psychology. Basically, what that means is that I work primarily with companies, & the leadership in that, helping them to do all things people related but basically get the best out of people through using the science of Psychology & Positive Psychology, specifically. & so that means executive coaching, team building, sometimes doing assessments, if you're trying to hire for high level positions, & basically just really focusing on work culture to allow people to perform at their best.
Marin Laukka
Amazing. & I have a master's degree in Positive Psychology & so I love that this is our connection here. Can you tell me a little bit about your background, specifically of Positive Psych & how that came to be involved in your work & in your practice, your own personal approach as well?
Dr. Thompson
Yeah. So actually, my PhD is in Clinical Psychology. &, you know, as I was getting my degree, there was a lot of elements of Positive Psychology I guess separating the training that I did, but it wasn't strictly Positive Psychology approach. & after I got my PhD I actually fell into consulting, so I originally thought it was going to be a therapist, & just kind of by happenstance…it's a long story, which I won't get into. I fell into consulting straight out of grad school, & decided to go that route. & I've actually found the transition to be a little bit of a culture shock. Just because the firm that I was with was more about being really tough minded &, you know, kind of looking for, I wouldn't say the worst of people but kind of the developmental opportunities & really honing in on that, not giving people a lot of grace. & so I found that to be not only a culture shock but I guess kind of a disconnect in terms of my own view of the world. & so, I actually just started doing a lot more research & work in Positive Psychology on my own. & then eventually got the courage to leave the firm that I was with to go & do my own thing, kind of the way that I wanted to do it in the way that I felt was conceptually a fit for me. So that's kind of how it worked on my end.
Marin Laukka
Amazing, & congratulations for taking that leap, it is always a little bit scary to do. & I definitely resonate with just how, yes, Positive Psych is like a field in & of itself, & it tends to be (I found at least) certain people are just drawn to that approach, more than others so there's at least in my program we refer to it as Psychology as usual, traditional Psychology, which is problem solving, so the problem is already there. You're looking for a problem to solve, whereas Positive Psychology it's like you said: looking for where things are going right & how can we utilize that rather than looking for a problem from the get go, so I'm so excited for this conversation today, & I want to start with on your website you say you work with ambitious professionals who want to achieve success the right way, & maybe this is lumped together with this idea of Positive Psychology. I'm wondering what your definition or what you've seen the people you work with their definition of the right way of success looks like.
Dr. Thompson
Yeah, so I think that a lot of people in management can have, I guess, somewhat a stereotype of what it means to be a good leader & I think a lot of that is based on antiquated notions that, you know, you have to be tough minded or, you know, if you're too kind to people they're going to take advantage of it or, you know, you kind of have to use a stick more than the carrot in terms of actually getting them to perform at their best, & it is an antiquated notion because a lot of the research basically suggests that that's not the way that you work. That's how you get people who are less engaged & are less satisfied. & so really you know what I like to do is show people that there's another way, but also present a lot of research to build the case just because I find that a lot of people in leadership need that empirical data to actually trust that it's true & that it can actually work, & then children, there's a different way to really engage people & get them excited, & you know I find particularly for leaders who already kind of trend in that direction in terms of those interests, they can find it to be really validating to know that, you know, kind of my instincts in terms of how to interact with people that are right, & then they get good results. I would say that ones that take a little bit more coaxing once they try out some of these approaches, they see that it's so much better. That feels better for them, it feels better for the people who approach them & they manage. & so I find this kind of a win-win all around because everybody just feels better with that kind of an approach.
Marin Laukka
Yeah, & that that balance that you speak to have, it's intuitive in a way. It feels much better, but also there's research to back it & I've definitely come up against a similar idea of like, even if it feels good, even if we have this intuitive sense of like “I think this would be a better approach” it's still reassuring to have also it's backed by research that this is this way works, &, you know, we're not going to go down it because we adopt a new approach that isn't what we have been doing for ever & in fact as you suggested it actually enhances business & makes everything better.
Dr. Thompson
If you take a positive approach it means that you're never giving anyone feedback or you're not holding people accountable & all of that & that's not what it is. It's just you're doing it in a way where you're maintaining the dignity of the individual & it's more focused towards growth than again punishment or trying to do things in a negative way.
Marin Laukka
Absolutely, yeah in my own practice & coaching I use a similar idea of it's not that we're ignoring the “negative” emotions or the “negative” experiences & feelings it's rather that we're having a compassionate relationship with them & utilizing them as opposed to suppressing them so absolutely it's an incorporation of. I think that's a that's a common misconception of Positive Psychology, which is understandable because it's called Positive Psychology so we think of like laughing & smiling & it's all like rainbows & butterflies & it's all good. & yes, sometimes, & it's this idea of holistic well-being & bringing in all these aspects, whether it's like you said: feedback & improvement & strategy & like the negative experiences & leaning into those & utilizing them.
Dr. Thompson
Absolutely.
Marin Laukka
Yes, yes. So, another question I have for you. We've already kind of touched on this but to dive in even a little bit deeper is the type of resistance you may experience, I'm taking an assumption here that there is some resistance to this approach. What's a common roadblock that you find when you introduce these new pathways, & how do you go about addressing those?
Dr. Thompson
Yeah, so, you know, I guess one is, like I said just misconceptions that people have about “What's your approach to leadership that works?” & so I usually present data for that I think, sometimes I'll work with some drivers who are very impatient, & they basically might feel like I don't have time for all that touchy-feely stuff like, you know, people come here to work that's not what I'm here for. I'm not a babysitter. &, you know, my I guess retort to that is that “Well as long as you're working with people, you have to care about how the people who work.” People are not robots, they have their individual psychologies & motivations & drivers & so this is going to help you to get better results by maybe slowing down & paying attention to the human element. &, you know, for people who aren't, I guess, I put up a wire that way. & it can still take some, I guess convincing, but I usually just to encourage doing little experiments or trying it out, or even thinking about, you know, if they had a boss who they really appreciated what was that person like, & it usually wasn't the hard driving boss who didn't care about people it was usually someone who took an interest in them, & was really focused on their growth. & so, I think when they can kind of reflect on those sorts of things it makes them at least suspend their disbelief enough to be willing to try & just see what happens.
Marin Laukka
Mm hmm. Yeah. & so, there's that there's the kind of surface notion of I'm not going to take a new approach I'm just like, that's not how I think it works. & then two other things that stood out to me in that explanation, obviously you've encountered this a few times is, “I don't have time”. & this touchy-feely stuff. So, can you talk more specifically about those two. “I don't have time” is that coming from, like, being too busy? Like not feeling like there's enough time, or just not valuing the thing that you're bringing in or maybe a combination of both? & then this idea of the touchy-feely what is the undercurrent of that idea?
Dr. Thompson
As you pointed out, probably a combination of both, just having a lot on their plate. Priorities & you know what's most tangible is checking an individual item off their to do list & so if you're focusing more on the interpersonal element there's not the same tangible & immediate gratification that you get from it. & so, a lot of that just has to do with sort of building the case in terms of the investment across time & you know one of the things that can sometimes be helpful as I was talking about how as a leader, your job is to develop people & to really create a high performing team, & you're not going to create a high performing team if you're only focused on the short-term tasks & not the long-term investment that's developing people. Sometimes that can be enough to get them on board & in terms of being more motivated to try it. & the touchy-feely element, I mean I think there are always some people who are just not going to be interested in it because of the touchy-feely element. But you know one of the things that I think people do hear more about in the business world is emotional intelligence, & the benefits of that & so I think if you can tie it to something that people are familiar with & if you can give them examples of like, you know, what good emotional intelligence looks like versus low emotional intelligence, then again, it's something that's a little bit more tangible. Where you can talk about, you know, this will help you to get potentially better results. This will help you to be a better influencer of people. This will help you be a better leader, & I think just making it as tangible as possible is, you know, helpful but I will say like there are always some people who are just sort of gritting their teeth as they're having to deal with the touchy feely element &, you know, it is what it is.
Marin Laukka
Absolutely yeah, & there is something to be said for we all have our different strengths & interests & potentially & I feel like this is starting to shift, but potentially who tends to be, at least currently, in a leadership role is someone who may have interest in strengths, that's not associated with touchy-feely again, I hope that that is shifting. But historically speaking I've seen that as the case. & so, like you said, there may just be that this isn't like the most exciting thing to go into, exciting thing to dive into. & I think the common theme in how we're addressing all of these different roadblocks (& this is for all of us, ourselves included) when we feel a roadblock to diving into the touchy feeling for going the positive route & instead of the negative route is tangibility. When we have the research, even you gave the example of think of a time, like what leader have you been under, have you followed that you've really appreciated & that's making it tangible by bringing in our own experience & feeling it like literally tangible, or the research or the data, or you know talking about long term time versus short term payoff. Yeah, tangible seems to be a good thing. Yeah, & I think also just small steps. So, take it as an experiment. & if you don't like it, we couldn't go back to the way that you did things before but at least just to try it out before you throw it out & decide that it's not an approach that you want to take.
Dr. Thompson
Absolutely, you & I speak the same language, that experiment term is what I use all the time because it like puts down the barriers & it helps us realize “Okay after, you know, give ourselves a time stamp after three months or after whatever if this really isn't working, then we can go back to how things were.” & then it sets the ease in that part of us that still gripping for whatever the historic status quo was, to be like we can go back, it's always an option we can go back. Right now there is some evidence to suggest that this may be a really good option for us moving forward.
Marin Laukka
All right, last question for the day. Second to last, I lied. Second to last. So, you say one of your aims is being an authentic leader who inspires others. How do you bring authenticity into the workplace, & then how do you yourself adopt authenticity, with your own practice & approach?
Dr. Thompson
Yes, question of authenticity in the workplace, I find this an interesting one because I think that a lot of people can find it to be a little bit scary. & I think that there are really multiple factors that affect how willing people are to be authentic, I mean I think part of it is just your personalities, some people are more private or guarded than others & so that's an aspect of it. But I also think that the environment in which they are in can play a role, or even an organization that has a sense of psychological safety where people are encouraged to be more authentic or not, because that's going to play a role too. I mean, I was just talking to a client last week who felt like, that wasn't really something that was supported in her environment & so she didn't know how much of that that she could do. & you know there's been research that suggests that I think about a third of people in, at least in North America, feel like they have to suppress themselves a little bit & can't be authentic in their environment. & I think the downside of that is that it can really create a sense of disconnection, or even like dissonance where you feel like you can't be who you are. & you know, that doesn't feel good & I think it also can make you feel lonely because, you know, we all know this instance of loneliness is more than just not having people around you, would also kind of feel like you're not truly being seen & so if you're not feeling like you can be authentic & you're in a position where you don't feel like you can't be seen. & so, I think that I know, it's really long winded response but authenticity is kind of a deep topic.
Marin Laukka
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Thompson
So I think like in terms of how you can start to go about being more authentic in the workplace, I think one thing is just getting in touch with your values, like what's important to me? How can I express that in the workplace, in ways that, you know, the workplace that I'm in can h&le but that will also allow me to feel like I'm expressing who I am, & I think it can also come from just taking small steps. So, if you're someone who tends to be private for example maybe share a little more like if someone asks you what did you do over the weekend. Instead of saying oh you know just hang out with family or something like that maybe you could give a little bit more details just so that you seem more accessible & you can build your relationships. I think just being present honestly can help a lot in terms of being more authentic, like just that, I guess, intangible connection that you feel when someone is truly attending to you, & holding space for you I think is something helpful. & I think, you know, the reality is if your workplace doesn't allow a lot of it then you can also just find other outlets where you can be authentic, but I think people often think of authenticity as an all or nothing sort of thing where either let it all hang out, or I'm showing a facade. & I think that there are degrees of authenticity that are appropriate, I mean I'm not going to talk about the same things at work as I would with the significant other, but it's just really, I think, allowing different aspects of yourself to be shown in the workplace & really taking another personal risk to be a little bit vulnerable when you make mistakes. All of those sorts of things I think can be really helpful in terms of being more authentic at work. Yeah.
Marin Laukka
Why do you that sometimes it's scary to have that & even these incremental shifts of being even a little more open or sharing a little bit more about your weekend or just being a little bit more yourself. Where do you think, maybe this is going to be a too broad of a question or we can't put a blanket statement over everyone, but do you notice a commonality of where that fear stems from oftentimes?
Dr. Thompson
So, pretty broad question but I would say one element that I think is pretty consistent is a fear of rejection. Like if I put myself out as my real self, how are people going to respond to that? & so, in some ways not being authentic is a way of protecting yourself. To some degree, I think it really has to do with “Is it safe to do that here & will I be accepted & validated for doing that?” They probably all come down to that.
Marin Laukka
Absolutely. I've seen that as well & when I think of a lot of the clients that I work with are transitioning or end up transitioning to their own work & being an entrepreneur & business owner, & being authentic in in even making that decision to pursue that. & the weight of rejection, not only if you're an entrepreneur, it kind of becomes that line between what's working & what's myself blends. & so, it's like rejection of my idea but also rejection of me, rejection of like income & stability, you mentioned too safety, I think all of that is wrapped up. So, do you have any go-to activities or perspectives or strategies that can help leaders & can help individuals within companies & outside of companies to help with that notion or that fear of rejection?
Dr. Thompson
Yes, I think this is a theme that keeps coming up a lot it's a small steps, right, because I think that a lot of times we have fears that are maybe grounded more in our own stuff than in how people are actually going to respond to us. & so, I think in some ways you're able to, it's kind of like a phobia, like if you've ever tested out by getting close to the balloon, you learn the balloons cannot hurt you but if you always avoid it then you never get to experience that. & so, I think through the small steps you can learn, number one, that maybe you're catastrophizing how people might respond to you. & so that can give you more confidence that you might not get rejected. I think through this small step you can also learn that you can tolerate the discomfort that comes with putting yourself out & challenging yourself in a new way. &, you know, when I decided to be an entrepreneur I knew it was going to be a stretch for me because I'm inherently introverted, but I knew that I would have to put myself out more just because otherwise no one would know I exist. & so, um, you know, part of it is kind of like feeling. I guess you know, feeling the discomfort, but just doing it anyway because it's important to you. & so, you know I talked about tying into your values earlier. & I think that that's another important piece of it like what are my values. Is it important to me to get myself out there or to share my gifts with the world or would I rather let other people's potential judgement that I don't even know is real or not really affecting me from being all that I was meant to be. & a lot of times for people that can be really helpful, or I'll say “What do we tell your child that they were coming to you with a similar issue?”, & that one often hits really close to home for people who are parents because you know they want to set a good example for their children & they, you know, really want to be in something that they can look up to. & so, that can often be something that also motivates them to at least try.
Marin Laukka
Yeah, absolutely. That notion of the stories we have in our mind are so powerful, & oftentimes a fallacy-- they oftentimes are not the truth. & like you said taking small steps to test them out doesn't mean we have to jump all in because we know that they're not probably not true. But taking the little small step of like, like you said, touching the balloon or like letting yourself even look at it & be like, “Is it that scary? Is it really here to attack me?” & something else, you talked about was this idea of transitioning things from one place of your life to another. So you mentioned, taking a step outside of yourself with, for instance, children, & I've seen this also just last week in my group program, someone was sharing that she did a workout program & didn't think she'd be able to make it through the sequence that's repeated each time, & eventually she did & the day that she did make it through it was like I can achieve anything & transferring that to whenever she feels scared to say I can do anything because I did that 92nd plank, & it was a really beautiful moment & really beautiful example of how we can take these elements, whether it's thinking about our children, whether it's thinking about you know what would our friends say or how would we advise someone that we care about. Or like, even the balloon analogy, the balloon metaphor of, you know, it's not scary. What would I do to get to know this thing that I know isn't scary? & then using that in a situation where there's emotions or, you know, other things that can make it seem more complicated than it actually needs to be.
Dr. Thompson
Yeah, think of someone who inspires you, who's done great things, who has never had any haters, or never experienced failure. I mean, usually you know mediocrity is maybe a safe space to be but if you really want to, you kind of need to expect that they're going to be people who weren't happy with that, but just accept that as part of the territory in a way.
Marin Laukka
Yeah, absolutely, & I like to use with my clients is “What would happen?” So, let's say you got a bad review, & then what would happen. Oftentimes you follow that down & it's like “Well, nothing, nothing would really happen.” Maybe it would hurt & to respect that & honor that & like, you're going to be okay, you're going to be okay. So, as I said earlier on, & we work in a little bit different way with Positive Psychology in this realm, you're often in businesses in corporations working with leaders, I'm often with individuals who are becoming the leader of their own life. & so, what advice would you give that idea of transferring that you often help leaders within a corporation that you might give to a leader who's becoming a leader of their own life & their own business?
Dr. Thompson
Yeah, so I am having been through that process myself. I feel like I can't really speak to it. Absolutely. I would say that first thing is just to develop a deep understanding of your strengths as well as your areas of opportunity, & as you're setting up your business really try to capitalize on your strengths. If you're in a position to delegate out your weaknesses, try to do that but we're not always especially just getting started in a position to do that. & so, I would say if you can't delegate them out but really try to create a plan so that you can make yourself accountable, whether it's building instructors & processes to help you along, or getting a coach who can hold you accountable. I think something else is really like owning your position as the boss. & I know that that was something that took me a while to really get used to, I mean even something small like managing my schedule, I would manage it, the way that clients wanted it as opposed to the way that I wanted to, even though I could now kind of be the boss. & so just really owning that you get to make the decisions to have your business the way that you want to run it. I think also just like owning that position helps you to show up in a different way & really embody yourself as a boss. & I would say be willing to challenge yourself & kind of just do what it takes, so like I said, I had to kind of challenge my introversion, I guess, & challenge my beliefs about making myself as visible. & I will say that I've grown much more being my own boss than when I work for someone else just because I knew that I would have to really face the sorts of things in order to be successful. & then the last thing I would say is just have a really good stress management arsenal, because it is stressful to work for somebody else, but it can be stressful to work for yourself too. It's just different kinds of stresses & their stressors that I don't mind because I feel like I have greater autonomy & control, but all the same. I mean, I still have stress at time & need to be able to manage that too.
Marin Laukka
Absolutely, absolutely. I think that's all wonderful advice & owning that space is a challenge that I often see & have experienced to like you experienced as well. & oftentimes, because it's like this unseen, like I don't even realize I'm doing it, & then it comes to the surface & like “Oh wait, that's not how I wanted my schedule to be.” & it's the process of like unveiling those things one by one. & yeah, really taking ownership & doing what it takes for you & that's different for everyone, to own that space & to own what you're doing & to celebrate yourself. So, I actually want to close with each of us celebrating something about ourselves. Own your celebration, I'd love to hear what yours is.
Dr. Thompson
Oh, that's an interesting question. Okay, I guess the one thing I would like to own & celebrate about myself, is just my resilience, & especially through COVID. I mean, I've gone through so many transitions of like remote schooling my son & trying to manage my schedule to still get stuff done &, you know, all that kind of stuff. &, you know, there's been ups & downs but I feel like we're in a smooth state now. & so, I want to own the fact that I've been resilient through all of this.
Marin Laukka
Amazing, congratulations for that. & I saw your whole face light up when you said that too.
Dr. Thompson
Yeah. Yes.
Marin Laukka
I would like to celebrate that I finally have found this place of feeling excited about the uncertainty that's coming before me, & that took a lot of work with my own coach, whereas before I was like “I want the plan & I want it laid out”, & I've fallen into this, this excitement about what's coming. Even though I still don't necessarily have a plan besides trust my intuition & go forward with that. But yeah, I'm celebrating that I'm excited in this even without a plan, especially without a plan, is a fine part of it if you can really own that & not need the destination. I think that's kind of like the secret of life.
Dr. Thompson
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Marin Laukka
Well, it was such a fun time talking with you today. I was so honored to bring you on, & to hear more about your story & to see your authentic self & I really hope that we stay connected. Anyone who's listening, who's watching, where can they reach out to connect with you?
Dr. Thompson
At silverliningpsychology.com, I'll say that again. silverliningpsychology.com, & you can find out about my services & then different online courses that I offer, stuff like that. So, I'd love to see that.
Marin Laukka
Amazing, thank you so much for your time today. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your Monday & keep celebrating how amazing you are.
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